Original message
| curiousinva
 |  "More Carrier vs. Trane"
, posted Thu 14 Feb 14:43  
I am replacing a 34 year old heating and central air system (old GE). Got an American Standard and a Trane guy:
American Standard tried to sell me an R22 Freon system. Also a variable speed fan as a must and about $100 difference in price. After Carrier guy dissed Amer Std (below) he said they don't carry Carrier because parts are hard to get and repairs were driving their costs up. Amer Std is better (heat exchanger crimped instead of welded, etc.).
The Carrier guy says that Amer Standard sold off the good line as Trane, and kept the builder grade line as Amer Std. Says Amer Std only has 1% of the replacement market. Also highly recommended Puron (R410). Said variable speed fan costs about $1200 more than a two-stage system, which sounds incredible. Said variable speed not necessary, and just to keep fan running continuously.
Who's full of it?
curious_in_va
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Replies:
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| jbwstroker
| "Re(1):More Carrier vs. Trane" , posted Thu 14 Feb 15:34:
A variable speed blower will give you greatly increased comfort and more even heating and cooling than just running a standard blower in continous mode. The VS blower will ramp up or down automatically depending on the mode (heating, cooling, fan only,etc) while running a standard blower continously is less energy efficient and the blower will run only on the high speed (or whichever speed tap is used from the motor). I say YES YES YES to a VS blower, especially with central AC. You'll get much better performance using less energy. As for the $1,200 additional cost for a VS furnace? Depends on the brand, but $1,200 seems a bit much. Typically the difference will be in or around $400-500 and well worth it in my opinion. Also, Carrier furnaces are not my top choice although geting parts shouldn't be a problem unless you live in Timbucktoo. I'm not qualified to give an opinion on the new Am Std units as I'm not familar with these, but Trane is a very good brand and is rated #1 by HVAC contractors on the JD Power website. Lastly, R-22 systems are being phased out but the refrigerant itself will be available for many years to come. R-410a is the new enviromentally friendly refrigerant. R410a systems will have a slightly higher initial cost than those using R-22 and is MUCH more critical these systems (R-410a) are installed properly. The oil in R410a attracts moisture like a dry sponge, so a thorough deep vacuum and NO leaks during the installation is even more critical than with a R-22 system.
"I am not responsible for mistakes other than my own. If in doubt call a pro!"
[this message was edited by jbwstroker on Thu 14 Feb 15:39] |
| | static
| "Re(2):More Carrier vs. Trane" , posted Thu 14 Feb 21:21
I'm sorry, but I wouldn't consider a crimped heat exchanger to be superior to anything.
Trane / American Standard has always been a little "behind the times".
If you are a good Carrier dealer, getting parts is no problem at all, nor are they terribly expensive if you do enough volume. (Usually). If you are a non-dealer trying to get parts from Carrier, they will stick it to you (as will most others).
With that being said, shame on those guys for trying to bash each other's brand...
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| | northernfitter
| "Re(3):More Carrier vs. Trane" , posted Sat 16 Feb 21:45
I have to agree with the last poster shame on them both. When salesman sit there bashing other products they lose a lot of trustworthyness in my eyes. If you want excellent comfort and overall an incredibly quiet furnace go with the variable speed fan. The trane unit is a nice unit and reliable but someone saying variable fan is not worth it is just saying what he thinks needs to be said to make the sale. In my opinion go back to the Carrier guy and tell him you would prefer the Carrier but $1200 difference is a little much see if you can talk him down or else call another Carrier or Bryant dealer(they are the same furnace) you might be able to find a better price somewhere else.
14years as a service tech in Ottawa and the valley. www.reliableheating.ca. For furnace manufacturer ratings go to
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/gas-furnaces/furnaces-repair-history-205/overview/index.htm?resultPageIndex=1&resultIndex=1&searchTerm=furnace
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| | curiousinva
| "Re(4):More Carrier vs. Trane" , posted Sun 17 Feb 11:08
Thanks for all the input. All great responses.
I got another Carrier-Trane dealer I like a lot. His price was also more than 12% less than the other two. Variable speed fan was only $550 more.
Two other questions, though. He did a thorough assessment of the house's size and heat loss. Sized furnace to 110,000 BTU to heat house to 72 degrees when its 0 degrees outside. The other guys were selling 120,000 to 135,000 BTUs. I trust this guy, and he will go up a step to 135,000 for $300. Is that worth the insurance, or will that be a poor step.
He is also recommending that an 8 Merve media filter (comes with the Carrier unit) will be fine. We have no real allergies, our current electronic unit probably hasn't worked in years, and the extra cost doesn't seem worth it. Opinions?
curious_in_va
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| | northernfitter
| "Re(5):More Carrier vs. Trane" , posted Sun 17 Feb 11:58
With no allergies or dust issues a low merv filter should be fine and if you change your mind down the road there are lots of higher end filters that you can get to just pop into the current filter bracket. Personally I have never been a fan of the original electronic air cleaners with the metal plates they dont tend to last all that long unless maintained constantly and are very expensive. As far as the sizing goes they all seem like huge furnaces how big is your house? Did all 3 go to the trouble to verify square footage and do heat loss calculations? I have a high efficiency Bryant in my home. The house is about 2500 square feet and the furnace is 120k btu. Generally you wont see too many furnaces that large unless the house is fairly big 2000sq feet+ or in my case big old and drafty.
14years as a service tech in Ottawa and the valley. www.reliableheating.ca. For furnace manufacturer ratings go to
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/gas-furnaces/furnaces-repair-history-205/overview/index.htm?resultPageIndex=1&resultIndex=1&searchTerm=furnace
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| | curiousinva
| "Re(6):More Carrier vs. Trane" , posted Sun 17 Feb 13:42
Only the last guy did the calculation.
The house is about 3,900 sq ft. Just had new windows put in, so that should help. The old furnace was 165,000 BTUs (a big old GE unit), but with efficiency at 65%. This is what the technician calculated:
"The manual J heat loss/gain that I did on your home showed that the cooling demand is 57,694 Btu’s and the 5-ton provides 60,000 Btu’s. The heating demand is 79,581 Btu’s and the proposed furnace has an output of 89,000 Btu’s. The existing furnace has an output of 110,000 Btu’s which was probably not oversized prior to the new windows."
curious_in_va
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| | northernfitter
| "Re(7):More Carrier vs. Trane" , posted Sun 17 Feb 15:33
Excellent, it sounds like you found a decent company. Just the fact that it meets the old units output will tell you that the new unit should meet your homes needs but its always nice to have someone do the proper calculations to know that your not getting something bigger than needed.
14years as a service tech in Ottawa and the valley. www.reliableheating.ca. For furnace manufacturer ratings go to
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/gas-furnaces/furnaces-repair-history-205/overview/index.htm?resultPageIndex=1&resultIndex=1&searchTerm=furnace
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