Carrier unit dealer prices? - http://www.hvacmechanic.com/ Forums
Original message
| hp_dude32
 |  "Carrier unit dealer prices?"
, posted Thu 26 Oct 15:52  
Hi!
The somewhat anal other HVAC discussion group forbids questions/comments about cost, but I had a Carrier hybrid system installed, and I'm simply curious as to what kind of markup the dealer includes for the "installed" price.
- Infinity 96 100,000 BTU
- Infinity 16 2-ton heatpump (new "rounded" unit)
- Infinity control
They did a good job, and a bunch of ductwork, but the quote was quite low, so I think they swallowed the ductwork cost versus other quotes I got. (a similar York system was nearly the same price!)
Also, I was quite shocked how cheap you can get new Amana (AMV90, etc) equipment on eBay. (one of my quotes was Amana...)
Ideas, or ballparks?
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Replies:
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| hvac_dude
| "Re(1):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Thu 26 Oct 19:24
So what did you pay?
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| | hp_dude32
| "Re(2):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Thu 26 Oct 19:57
quote:
So what did you pay?
...
With completely new trunkline ductwork all the way to the existing basement ceiling supply connections (moved the furnace to the opposite side of the house...), roughly $9,400 after rebates.
I did remove the old oil tank, furnace and ductwork ahead of time, but comically enough, most contractors trivially undervalued the work in an effort to inflate the quote. (the winning bidder figured about 10-12 man-hours, and quoted the potential reduction accordingly, others were less than half!)
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| acefurnacefxr
| "Re(1):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Thu 26 Oct 15:58
Its better for everyone involved if you dont know.
My spelling sucks thats why I am not a teacher.
22 years of running HVAC service calls Man I have seen it all.
I belong to a union
I also belong to a gym a campground and Triple A.
I may tell you whats wrong but its my job to fix it not yours.
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| | hp_dude32
| "Re(2):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Thu 26 Oct 16:23:
quote:
Its better for everyone involved if you dont know.
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Why?
Is the HVAC industry so insecure that they don't trust a purchaser's desire to pay fair payment for a day's work?
Having a broken-out quote would not have changed my desire to upgrade my furnace, but I sure as hell would have questioned it if the time on-site exceeded what a surgeon makes! (and why would a HVAC "professional" expect to bill time out at a higher rate than an engineer or veterinarian, for example?)
Most professionals bill out on a clearly-stated hourly basis. Cost = Time at task + plus materials. Would you let a mechanic give you a lump-sum quote to fix your car? Nope...
It's a bizarre mindset, that will undoubtedly change as things like the Internet empower the buyer with vast amounts of knowledge compared to the dark ages a few years ago. (assuming they want it...)
The real estate market is in the same panic mode, where realtors are being questioned as to what value they actually bring to the table for the fees they charge, when a homebuyer has exactly the same toolset at their disposal now.
Knowledge is power, and all service industries are going to be under increasing pressure to be more transparent, or they risk losing work.
[this message was edited by hp_dude32 on Thu 26 Oct 16:28] |
| | Freon
| "Re(3):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Fri 27 Oct 11:02
Amen. Some HVAC supply houses won't sell to the public. I wonder why. Could it be pressure from the HVAC companies not to let homeowners fix their own equipment? AutoZone will sell you any part to fix your car, so it's not a liability issue. And all work in the home has to be inspected by building inspectors just to prevent homeowners, who legally can do anything in their own home, from doing anything against building codes. Knowledge is power.
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| | DW1
| "Re(4):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Fri 27 Oct 17:00
The reason some supply houses will not sell to the public could be either state or county laws or restrictions. It could also have to do with their business licence, whether it's wholesale or retail.
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"And all work in the home has to be inspected by building inspectors just to prevent homeowners, who legally can do anything in their own home, from doing anything against building codes."
That my friend is absolutely not true. You can piss and moan about building codes all you want. I agree that you can do anything you want in your house as long as it meets the MINIMUM standard which is your state building code. This is for public safety (and that includes ME).
You can build a deck 12 foot off the ground and support it with 2 2 X 4's. Everythings fine until 3-4 people are on it and it falls down. Your homeowners insurance will not cover it if the insurance company finds out there was not a permit on it.
You can install a new kitchen in your home and wire it yourself.
Everythings fine until you have a fire in the kitchen and burn half your house down. Hope you have either 1)a permit or 2)really deep pockets.
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| | Freon
| "Re(5):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Fri 27 Oct 17:42
DW1, with all due respect, and I do respect your opinions, I have yet to find any laws against selling to the public in any state... it's against to law to not sell generic goods, and it's called antitrust/ restraint of trade. Many HAVC shops won't even sell retail so that's not the issue. Imagine not being able to buy break fluid because you don't have an auto repair shop. However, selling R-22 products without an EPA license is another issue.... but an electric motor??
I'm not pissing and moaning about building codes... to the contrary, I'm praising them. I always assuming permits are pulled and work inspected. And if the homeowner follows the code guidelines, then the kitchen won't burn nor will the deck collapse. As you astutely pointed out, a homeowner would be a fool to void their homeowner's insurance by building without a permit and subsequent inspection.
Do homeowners skirt the building code... sure. But so do many "professionals". And all those individuals in both categories are equally guilty of poor judgement that's possibly criminal.
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| | DW1
| "Re(6):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Fri 27 Oct 18:32
I think it still has to do with the business licence, wholesale or retail.
Some manufacturers go thru the traditional distributor, dealer network. 2 that come to mind are Snapper and AO Smith. Many years ago Lennox closed my parts account because I would not sign an agreement where I was required to have 85% of my business with Lennox.
I agree about the electric motor but where does the wholesaler draw a line about what part is available to the homeowner? Considering the price of solid state control boards what is the wholesaler supposed to do when the homeowner brings back the 3rd fried control board or brings back the 3rd board and says his system still doesn't work properly? Whether the 3 boards are fried or have been installed and it didn't fix the problem, those 3 boards are still trash. He can't sell them again as they've been used and if they're fried the manufacturer is not going to eat them.
The supply housing want to sell to licenced contractors. A licenced contractor has to meet certain minimum standards to show that he at least has a clue about what he is doing. The homeowner only has a credit card.
BTW do you know where I can buy a Armani suit wholesale? (smile)
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| | Freon
| "Re(7):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Fri 27 Oct 20:54
China
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| | acefurnacefxr
| "Re(3):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Thu 26 Oct 18:02
ok.................if that mind set makes you feel all warm and fuzzy then run with it.
I got a better idea!
Start your own HVAC company and put furnaces in at what YOU think you should have been charged.
If you have bad eyes, you can get lasic surgury, if your a fatass you can get a lap band,if your ears are bad, you can get a hearing aid............BUT YOU CANT FIX STUPID!
My spelling sucks thats why I am not a teacher.
22 years of running HVAC service calls Man I have seen it all.
I belong to a union
I also belong to a gym a campground and Triple A.
I may tell you whats wrong but its my job to fix it not yours.
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| | DW1
| "Re(3):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Thu 26 Oct 17:39
Manufacturers usually will not sell equipment to the homeowner for liability issues. Air conditioners and gas furnaces are not like a refrigerator or tv that you take out of a box and plug in. Most homeowners don't have the tools, training, or skills necessary to install the equipment properly.
The market place balances the equation in that you can obtain multiple quotes for the finished product.
Warranty issues. The standard warranty from the manufacturer is 5 years on parts, 10 yrs on compressor, 20 yrs on heat exchanger. There is no labor allowance. This puts the burden on whoever installed the equipment to install it properly. (But then I guess the homeowners labor is worth nothing.)
I am well aware that you can buy a piece of equipment on the internet. You can also find a sheetmetal mechanic to install it, a plumber to run the gas line, and the electrician to wire it. Who is going to test it to make sure it operates the way it was designed. Guarantee you that manufacturers are going after some of these people that sell equipment on the internet.
Who is going to design the duct system and install it?
I especially like your analogy concerning the surgeon. Did he guarantee the surgery would be a success or more to the point, did he guarantee you that you would wake up?
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| | hp_dude32
| "Re(4):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Thu 26 Oct 19:47
quote:
You can also find a sheetmetal mechanic to install it, a plumber to run the gas line, and the electrician to wire it. Who is going to test it to make sure it operates the way it was designed.
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As far as the above, simply add an independent HVAC installer and you're set!
Now, why are there no (or few) independent HVAC installers?
Is HVAC such an extraordinarily complicated science that it takes decades of training to understand? No, it has to be another reason...
I boils down to the cloistered, secretive union/brotherhood nonsense that protects the shoddy, and overpays the adequate.
Like any union situation, once you get on the gravy train, it's incredibly hard to get off, and you slowly come to believe that you are somehow unique, and worth your inflated income.
The auto workers are now facing this horrible reality, that they are paid professional wages for grunt work, and they have no useful skills beyond their small world, and would be lucky to get 1/3 of their pay in the real world.
HVAC techs are far beyond a GM screw-tightener, but absolutely no more uniquely skilled than any competent electronics or aircraft technician working in the private sector, getting a fair wage.
You asked for it, and you got it. End of rant...
About my original request, it has nothing to do with DIY, I'd never bother...
My point is why the paranoia about breaking out a quote into it's realistic component values? (pretty much answered above...)
I did have 5 quotes, but amongst a few of them they were simply pulling numbers out of their ass, and hoping I would fall for it. (probably happens fairly often...)
To their credit, others took the time to measure and check the existing installation and situation, and gave reasonably competitive quotes.
One refused to quote and threw away a potential $12,000 contract, which to me makes them highly suspect, as they knew right away that I wasn't going to say "un huh" to everything they fed me.
The winning bid (owner a PEng.) obviously works on a different set of margins than the rest, and offered top-of-the-line equipment, and had a team of 4 installers do the job in two and a half days.
They were always willing to explain and discuss any aspect of the work as it progressed, which was very welcome and refreshing.
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| | DW1
| "Re(5):Carrier unit dealer prices?" , posted Fri 27 Oct 08:36:
Ace is correct. HVAC is full of lying, cheating, no good SOB's, that have managed to stay in business 20,30,40 years. A good upstanding fellow like yourself COULD make as much as a surgeon.
Granted, the skills necessary are not extraordinarily complicated but you must be somewhat skilled in many of them.
I know nothing about "cloistered, secretive union/brotherhood nonsense that protects the shoddy, and overpays the adequate".
If that's a rant about unions you're on your own there. In my area, Virginia suburbs of DC, there are over 1800 licensed contractors. You can count on one hand with fingers left over that are union contractors that do residential work.
You state that you had "5 quotes, but amongst a few of them they were simply pulling numbers out of their ass, and hoping I would fall for it. (probably happens fairly often...)".
And your point is? This happens In ANY contracting business, some know what they're doing and some don't. Again, that's why you recieved 5 quotes and found someone who had some knowledge about what he was doing.
Your opinion of the contractor that didn't give you a quote on a 12K job is different from mine. He may not have liked your attitude and decided that 24K would not be enough to do your job.
Looks like the marketplace worked just fine.
Reason for edit: Fat Fingers not fractured thoughts.
[this message was edited by DW1 on Fri 27 Oct 08:40] |
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