heat pump issues...bizarre!! - http://www.hvacmechanic.com/ Forums
Original message
| a9ballkid
 |  "heat pump issues...bizarre!!"
, posted Sun 8 Jun 10:54  
I have a tempstar 9000 Heatpump...approx. 11 years old. It ran fine until mid winter when it started acting very strange. When the temp. was above about 45 F, it seemed to run fine. But when it got cold at night, the unit would make noises like it was trying to start, sorta buzz, then sound like it was starting up for 5-10 seconds and then cut off. I'd here it try to do this periodically throughout the night...then as it warmed up the next day bam it would start running as normal and deliver heat. Occasionally going down powering everything off at the breaker and restarting would seem to have a positive effect. Then spring came and we had to use the system much less, and it seemed to be doing ok. Now we're having an extremely warm spell for the mountains of NC and the unit seems to be up to it's old tricks, but on the cooling cycle. I had a guy guy come out , added some freon because he thought it was reading low, but couldn't find a leak. We added some dye to the system to re-check for a leak in the system, but the problem seems to remain. It's not cooling well during the heat of the day, but as the temp. cools at night all the sudden it seems to catch and the system starts putting out noticeably cooler air...but runs about the whole night trying to drop the house from the low 80's to the low 70's. During the day it will start doing it's wintertime thing of acting like it wants to start, but not able to do it...again...completely powering down seems to help at times. I'm about resigned to needing a new system, but figured i'd ask here and see what you thought. The hvac people here all tend to be grossly overpriced and underwhelming. The downturn in the housing market may start to help the consumer, but the same job that in Charlotte would be quoted at a given price is $1500-$2000 more here in the mountains. I have no trouble paying someone $500 for a days work to come out and replace the system, but i'm sure the quote for the labor & the equipment is going to make me know that the person is gouging me for $2000 for 6-8 hours work, and frankly I can't live with that. It's even got me checking out super high efficiency ductless mini-splits as an alternative. Any advice/thoughts would be much appreciated!!
|
|
Replies:
|
| theduke03
| "Re(1):heat pump issues...bizarre!!" , posted Sun 8 Jun 11:02:
I would never replace your system for 500 bucks and nobody else would either. Your compressor has suffered much abuse running like that since mid-winter. You should probably call a more reputable company. I would discourage mini split system since you already have ducts. A conventional system is much more effective in cooling a whole house. You should shut off the breaker until issue is resolved or you will definately need a new system.
As far as the gouging comment, Is this something you can do yourself? Do you expect a contractor's buisness and employees to have insurance? Are they riding horseback or using a vehicle?(gas is expensive). After all that there should be a little profit for the company too. If you are looking for charity you should contact Habitat for Humanity.
"My dad was the most feared furnace fighter in Northern Indiana."
[this message was edited by theduke03 on Sun 8 Jun 11:06] |
| | a9ballkid
| "Re(2):heat pump issues...bizarre!!" , posted Sun 8 Jun 12:14
Duke...this was really NOT what I was looking for when posting on this sight, but since you've decided to be a jerk...fine I'll play along. First off...I am self-employed, and work on straight commission in the insurance business. I don't set the premiums, I don't charge for gas /mileage/time/etc., and often have appointments where I've offered my expertise and have not made a dime...maybe due to health/finanaces/competitor... whatever. Yes this is frustrating and unrewarding, but it happens all the time. So, although i have often worked for "free", I know it's not fun, and I don't expect it of anyone else. Now to my situation...no I'm not HVAC licensed, but I did pass both my electrical and plumbing tests so that I could do both myself when I was building my log home. I confuse none of these trades w/ rocket science, but I am happy to pay reasonably for a qualified professionals experience and aptitude when necessary. Your ire seems to be raised by the fact that you feel that an HVAC person should be paid more than $100/hour for their time. I'm sorry but I don't agree. If the person is an independent, I think the chance to make $500/day in rural wnc is a pretty liveable wage. If it is one of the bigger firms, then i'd bet they're not paying that person more than $25-30 hour to do the call. If i'm paying $100/hour, then the company is making that spread to defray the costs of it's overhead and go towards company profits. I don't see that it should take any more than 5-6 hours to install an airhadler, set the outside unit on the existing pad and hookup the lines/charge the system, etc. Now if I'm way off on the time frame...that's another matter, if in fact the timeframe is correct, but you think an HVAC person should be paid $200/hour..well I'm sorry, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.
|
| | theduke03
| "Re(3):heat pump issues...bizarre!!" , posted Sun 8 Jun 12:30
It will take at least double that time, plus 2 or more technicians to do the job. Now do a re-calculation and see what the company is charging per hour. Sorry for being a jerk. I can say however that there is more work than meets the eye when replacing a system. If I was any dumber I'd be a plumber.
"My dad was the most feared furnace fighter in Northern Indiana."
|
| | a9ballkid
| "Re(4):heat pump issues...bizarre!!" , posted Sun 8 Jun 12:59
Hey Duke...sorry for getting off on the wrong foot. I felt bad when i saw you trying to help chrisopher on his question...was sure i must have got your evil twin!! Anyway, my experiences around here fortunately mostly 2nd hand tend to sound more like the coaches...replace this, try that, replace this, none of this cheap by the way...oops i thnk you're going to need a new system. Sometimes they jump right past the fix attempts to the "you need a new system". I was really hoping someone had an idea of what was going on, so I'd be armed and dangerous if i did end up calling one of these people. I don't really like the idea of paying someone to "guess" at what's going on, and it seems like there's far too much of that and far too little hardcore factual diagnosis. You may be great/fair/honest and asuperior diagnostician, but you sound way too worldly to believe that all the HVAC people in the world are that way. This is not an indictment...lord knows I've suffered for plenty of sleezeballs/liars/incompetents in the insurance industry as well. But I would love your thoughts on what YOU think is going on w/ my system. I too am sure i've been doing the system no favors by it's recent treatment...and a new system may be around the corner...also who's systems do you like???
|
| | theduke03
| "Re(5):heat pump issues...bizarre!!" , posted Sun 8 Jun 13:15
Your compressor is locked/unable to start. This could be caused by the compressor bearings being shot, a bad capacitor, dirty coils inside or outside units, or a low refrigerant charge. You are right. I am the Duke of HVAC and I realize that most techs are not(not even close). If you wish to troubleshoot and have a meter then let me know. A capacitor costs around 10 bucks. Other problems may or may not require a pro.
As for my preferences I like Trane/American standard but that is not important. 2 things are important. 1 is to have system installed by a reputable contractor. Proper installation and regular maintenance is the key to any system's operation and lifespan. 2 is don't get a Goodman.
"My dad was the most feared furnace fighter in Northern Indiana."
|
| | a9ballkid
| "Re(6):heat pump issues...bizarre!!" , posted Sun 8 Jun 13:45
thanks for your help...i tend to be a methodical diagnostician...or try to be even if over my head with something so let me tell you what's been done...inside coils were examined and clean...outside coils appear fairly clean...this unit has a double row of coils...sorta fins/coils/fins/coils/fins/ as you look at it from the top as a cross section. If it had a bad capacitor, would it ever have times where it worked correctly...the other night it brought the house down to 67 once it finally starteed cooling. I guess ditto with the compressor...if it was siezed it wouldn't work at all,right?? or not?? We did not replace the capacitor...that was the first guess, but theunit had not been run, I had it cut off as you suggested, but when turnedon to start the diagnosis, it started right up. The guy said...well it's not a capacitor. It seems to happen at the extremes of the temp. range, just when you need the heat cool the most. The system might run but the air at the vents is neither warm or cool depending on what's being called for. Low freon seemed likely, and freon was added, along w/ dye. This was the second trip by the way. some freon was added the first time, the second time we added dye to the system...we never could find a leak at that time, but the guy said to seee if it did better and we might have to look for a leak once the dye had made it through the system. It didn't cool well that day, but caught in the late evening and kicked out cold air till the next morning. Kept the house reasonable yesterday...the temp in the house crept up about 3-4 degrees, it was about 93 here...but sometime at night once the thermostat had kicked the unit off, i awoke to the cycling/trying to run deal again...It's tried to run today but hasn't done much in the way of cooling...ventair maybe a little cool,but not much...but tonight as the temp drops it may cool like crazy again for awhile. Obviously something is not right,maybe the black light will find anice orange glow?? After all i've described does that seem the most likely scenario. Oh i'll also mention that the guy did not seem to happy with the way his freon guages were reading...where he was wanting to see 60psi...it seemed like he would only get about 30 (as I recall from looking over his shoulder).
|
| | theduke03
| "Re(7):heat pump issues...bizarre!!" , posted Sun 8 Jun 14:05:
OK then that answers many questions. We can skip the diagnosis and go right to the repair. Shut the breaker to outdoor unit off if you haven't done so yet. This is to allow compressor to cool. You should add a hard start kit to the unit, relatively inexpensive and easy to install. This can be purchased online or from any local HVAC supplier. While you're at it get a new capacitor too. I'm not a partschanger like many techs are but I'm recommending replacement of cap because it is cheap and to eliminate the possibility that it is failing, plus it too has suffered abuse.. Just be sure the new cap is the same microfarad(uF) ratings as the original. Since you say the compressor will run sometimes and cool the house effectively then I believe this should fix your problem. You may just want to be sure that the compressor is being supplied with proper voltage first. Post results.
"My dad was the most feared furnace fighter in Northern Indiana."
[this message was edited by theduke03 on Sun 8 Jun 14:11] |
| | a9ballkid
| "Re(8):heat pump issues...bizarre!!" , posted Sun 8 Jun 14:20
THANKS Duke!! What do you think about the freon leak...If low, doesn't thos mean it has to be going somewhere?? And what do you think is causing the unit to run and not cool/heat at 90 and 25, but allowing it to work(well at times) when the temp is 45-70??? I guess maybe we'll find out that there is both a freon leak and the need for a hard start kit & a new capacitor. Does a unit that's been working fine for 11 years just have wear on it that causes it to become hard start??? What about moisture in the lines, do you think a dryer may be necessary?? Do you have on online hvac partsplace that you recommend...and are hard start kits generic or brand/model specific??? I hope that covers it for the Q&A...but thanks for your time & trouble!! Send me your address..i'd like to send you a thank you note!
|
| | theduke03
| "Re(9):heat pump issues...bizarre!!" , posted Sun 8 Jun 14:49
Don't worry about the freon for now. Many techs add freon when it is not even needed so your system may be overcharged. Only a tech that uses gauges and a temperature device will be able to adjust charge correctly. If there was moisture in the lines the compressor would have died long ago. A drier is unneccessary. Unfortunately I cannot recommend an online supplier only cuz I've never used one but others have with success. You will have to shop around. Hard start kits are generic. There are different sizes. Before ordering one note the horsepower of compressor(located on unit nameplate) and just be sure the one you get is appropriate. They will specify for example: 1/2 HP to 10 HP. As long as you're between that it will work.
I usually just get punished for a good job so if you want to thank me, just skip the punishment and I'll call it even. Be sure to post results after the repair. I recommend posting in a new thread cuz by the time you get parts this thread will be on page 4 and I will never see it.
"My dad was the most feared furnace fighter in Northern Indiana."
|
|
|
|  |
|
